Hi. I’m a dad, somewhat *retired* ie maybe an “old white dude”, but my hair is not that grey. Enough about me. I enjoyed your thoughts, you hit the nail on the head, several times, even. I like CR, she’s got talent, witty, cheeky, pushing the envelope. You can’t ask for any more than that. So what are the straight white (especially white) guys complaining about with her? It’s not “accessible” to them? Makes no sense and exposes their hypocrisy while they bob their heads listening to hip hop/rap tunes born from the struggles of people of color over generations. How is that accessible to the straight white male? What of that actually resonates with them? They just want to be part of the bro (misogynistic) culture and have found their ticket in, or so they think. Here’s CR “I don’t need you. I’m carving out a space over here for everything you don’t stand for.”
I’ll go out on a limb and say these dudes would love everything about CR if she had came out as bi. That gives them hope that there’s still “a chance”, keeps their hegemonic fantasies (fueled by copious amounts of internet porn) alive.
Shields up, dudes. I think she’s just getting warmed up. Resistance is futile. Snowflakes will be melted by her stare. Learn the HOTTOGO dance now while you still can.
I really appreciate you reading and sharing your thoughts, thank you so much :)))
You’re so right—so much of this pushback feels like a reaction to Chappell saying, ‘actually, I don’t exist for your approval!!’ and that clearlyyy unsettles them. The entitlement runs deep, especially when you think about how they engage with other forms of culture without questioning their own place in it, like you mentioned. And your point on hegemonic fantasy? Spot onnnn, it’s always about maintaining that ~illusion~ of access!
I recently found myself in a situation where I was defending Chappell Roan to some white straight cis men and one of their takes on her and her music was definitely hinting at what you write about, but he hid it under the guise of, “I feel excluded from her music because I don’t understand it or the nods to queer media, and because of that it’s a regression. She isn’t doing or saying anything in her music that progresses the acceptance of lgbt people because it is purposefully excluding people, but the music itself also doesn’t make me want to learn more.” I was like….. why do you need to be catered to for something to have value??? Like once I was trying to get into the nitty gritty of his points he was saying, “Why is this earning such a strong reaction and discussion. I don’t like how the industry puts her on a pedestal and say this is the epitome of the queer experience.” When I was trying to explain it doesn’t HAVE to pander to you, her audience is queer people, and she’s just singing about her personal experience as a lesbian from the midwest, and that may resonate with a lot of people. Especially through pop music, which can be used as a tool to introduce topics/queer media in a way that’s easily digestible to the mainstream. I was genuinely baffled by my conversation with him.
i have a coworker who listens to aggressively misogynistic rap and r&b from the 90's. he plays it over the Bluetooth in the company car, speakers when working, and just off his phone all the time. he is showing racist and misogynistic memes to white men in the office because he think they will agree with him in thinking they are funny. (they do not agree) but when i play hot-to-go or feminonimon he complains to HR because it is inappropriate music being played and the language and content is not appropriate for the workplace. i understand that complaint with casual, but i choose to steer from explicitly sexual songs because that would be inappropriate. just made it clear where he lies with that.
Super valid! What’s interesting is the man I was talking to explained chappell’s music as “look at me im a sad, depressed lesbian,” and when i called him out he also said it was “music just to shake your ass to.” Which was crazy to me because, one he was constantly contradicting himself, and two, a lot of her music is celebratory and dancy for sure, which is always a treat to hear, but I dont find myself shaking my ass to it lol. They’re just mad they won’t allow themselves to have fun with it 😂
i love this so much and you’re so right. society is so unused to seeing a successful lesbian woman being herself and free from men. i often see people (mostly men) say she’s secretly attracted to men and that she’s faking her sexuality to because she dated men in the PAST ?? which is soooo invalidating & downright homophobic AND sexist. but anyways before i rant on too much, i just wanna say thank you for writing this. you have literally put my exact thoughts into words. and your writing is so well written and amazing 😊
It is so infuriating - and this piece was born from my own exhaustion as a woman, frankly. It’s so frustrating, and I hated seeing another woman being attacked.
Amazing piece. I feel like I have no one to talk to about this. Or actually ,about the other side of this story. Women artists are 95% half naked on stage! I was the first one to defend them against those who were shaming them, because I thought they were expressing themselves. But when you see ALL OF THEM wearing almost to nothing, being sexual, raising the bar of nakedness, you begin to wonder: is this self expression or are we again doing what is expected of us? Who are we catering to? Are we naked on stage because there is a certain privilege and opportunities coming from that? And who is benefitting? I think it’s MEN AGAIN. They convinced us we wanted to be naked, when in truth they want us to get easy access to us being naked. If this wasn’t an imposition then we would see the whole realm of expression: from being all covered, to being extra, to being half naked, whatever. But successful singers are always expected to be naked! (Only few exceptions like Adele, Celine Dion.. not many more)
I think in the case of Chappell it’s definitely self expression and a reclamation of “hyper femininity” (shes said as much in interviews) influenced by drag culture and disrupting the male gaze with her drag makeup and white-face. Men seem to think she’s ugly AF even though she isn’t wearing much at all. She’s just not dressing for them and the drag elements of her stage costumes make that pretty clear.
As for who’s benefitting? A lot of us queer women who previously avoided femme-presenting clothing so as not to draw attention from men. She’s proving to a lot of us that avoiding “feminine” sexy outfits is just another form of submission to their patriarchal control over the culture of female sexuality rather than what we (as women/non-men) personally deem feminine and sexy. So I started wearing more make up and crop tops and I feel more sexy than I ever did dressing as a masc. Chappell is leading by example that just because you’re showing off your body doesn’t mean it’s for the enjoyment of men. It can be enjoyment and celebration of yourself (and the enjoyment of other women) ☺️
She does revolve around men though? She basically defines lesbianism in reference to being better than country boys and kissing a hundred boys in bars. I mean actual lesbian art exists and it is a niche (and chappell is not a niche) Oh and I would never believe that a woman dressing up feminine is somehow strange or revolutionary. Maybe it seems revolutionary for modern online people who wear only sweatpants, but there is truly nothing strange in a woman wearing heels and makeup. She is just a regular pop star, a commercial product, some producer experimenting with “is queer bating profitable”
Okay Igor - go read your Substacks with AI generated “art” then. With all due respect, I do not take the opinion of a man on a woman’s issue, second from someone who has evidently not understood her lyrics, or her project, and the entirety of this Substack piece, and third, the opinion of a person who has no issue with AI invading the world of art. Thank you for reading however!
I only took the courage to reply because my demographics of 'men who do not like Chappell Roan' were mentioned in the article, so maybe I can contribute by speaking directly from the source? And my understanding of Chappell Roan's lyrics is that I feel targeted, and when I feel targeted - I do not feel decentered. I do feel completely decentered and alienated when I listen to 'Mary Lambert - Christmas Cookies' though.
I think I mentioned 'why' in the original comment. She defines lesbianism in reference to being better than country boys and her version of lesbianism involves kissing a hundred boys in bars. Men are definitely not absent from her lyrics, they are not there just for jabs, they are the reference for everything else to be defined as 'not men', 'better than men', etc etc. Compared to Mary Lambert whose lyrics truly has men absent - stark difference.
Again - you have misunderstood the meaning of the lyrics, and are basing your argument on incorrect interpretation. It’s okay, some things aren’t there for cis-hetero men to understand, and you can leave it at that, because you’re struggling!
Look, Apple music pushed 'The Giver' on me, and yes, I everyone sees lyrics from their POV, however, listening to this song made me question - can she love a woman without thinking about country boys? Of course she thinks of them in 'i don't like them - i am better than them' ways, but this is not decentering, this is targeting. That's my only point, really. There is a big difference between targeting and real decentering.
I thought this was so interesting and to me shows how different online discourse is to real life. Most men around my age seem to love chappell roan, my partner plays ice hockey which some people would assume is incredibly masculine and not the target chappell roan audience, but him and his teammates love listening to her and singing along to her songs in bars. I think there are a lot of men who enjoy her because she is just having fun and also just makes great pop music. I introduced my partner to her when we started dating the middle of last year and she ended up in his top 5 Spotify artists. I think a lot of these men complaining about her online are just annoyed that not everything caters to them. Maybe if they were more secure in their masculinity they'd also be singing along to pink pony club in bars with their friends.
Hi. I’m a dad, somewhat *retired* ie maybe an “old white dude”, but my hair is not that grey. Enough about me. I enjoyed your thoughts, you hit the nail on the head, several times, even. I like CR, she’s got talent, witty, cheeky, pushing the envelope. You can’t ask for any more than that. So what are the straight white (especially white) guys complaining about with her? It’s not “accessible” to them? Makes no sense and exposes their hypocrisy while they bob their heads listening to hip hop/rap tunes born from the struggles of people of color over generations. How is that accessible to the straight white male? What of that actually resonates with them? They just want to be part of the bro (misogynistic) culture and have found their ticket in, or so they think. Here’s CR “I don’t need you. I’m carving out a space over here for everything you don’t stand for.”
I’ll go out on a limb and say these dudes would love everything about CR if she had came out as bi. That gives them hope that there’s still “a chance”, keeps their hegemonic fantasies (fueled by copious amounts of internet porn) alive.
Shields up, dudes. I think she’s just getting warmed up. Resistance is futile. Snowflakes will be melted by her stare. Learn the HOTTOGO dance now while you still can.
*returning now to dad stuff*
I really appreciate you reading and sharing your thoughts, thank you so much :)))
You’re so right—so much of this pushback feels like a reaction to Chappell saying, ‘actually, I don’t exist for your approval!!’ and that clearlyyy unsettles them. The entitlement runs deep, especially when you think about how they engage with other forms of culture without questioning their own place in it, like you mentioned. And your point on hegemonic fantasy? Spot onnnn, it’s always about maintaining that ~illusion~ of access!
I love this comment. Thanks for sharing 🥲
I recently found myself in a situation where I was defending Chappell Roan to some white straight cis men and one of their takes on her and her music was definitely hinting at what you write about, but he hid it under the guise of, “I feel excluded from her music because I don’t understand it or the nods to queer media, and because of that it’s a regression. She isn’t doing or saying anything in her music that progresses the acceptance of lgbt people because it is purposefully excluding people, but the music itself also doesn’t make me want to learn more.” I was like….. why do you need to be catered to for something to have value??? Like once I was trying to get into the nitty gritty of his points he was saying, “Why is this earning such a strong reaction and discussion. I don’t like how the industry puts her on a pedestal and say this is the epitome of the queer experience.” When I was trying to explain it doesn’t HAVE to pander to you, her audience is queer people, and she’s just singing about her personal experience as a lesbian from the midwest, and that may resonate with a lot of people. Especially through pop music, which can be used as a tool to introduce topics/queer media in a way that’s easily digestible to the mainstream. I was genuinely baffled by my conversation with him.
i have a coworker who listens to aggressively misogynistic rap and r&b from the 90's. he plays it over the Bluetooth in the company car, speakers when working, and just off his phone all the time. he is showing racist and misogynistic memes to white men in the office because he think they will agree with him in thinking they are funny. (they do not agree) but when i play hot-to-go or feminonimon he complains to HR because it is inappropriate music being played and the language and content is not appropriate for the workplace. i understand that complaint with casual, but i choose to steer from explicitly sexual songs because that would be inappropriate. just made it clear where he lies with that.
Super valid! What’s interesting is the man I was talking to explained chappell’s music as “look at me im a sad, depressed lesbian,” and when i called him out he also said it was “music just to shake your ass to.” Which was crazy to me because, one he was constantly contradicting himself, and two, a lot of her music is celebratory and dancy for sure, which is always a treat to hear, but I dont find myself shaking my ass to it lol. They’re just mad they won’t allow themselves to have fun with it 😂
This was beautifully stated Sumeyya!!! 🩷
Thank you so much, Dejaih 💞
i love this so much and you’re so right. society is so unused to seeing a successful lesbian woman being herself and free from men. i often see people (mostly men) say she’s secretly attracted to men and that she’s faking her sexuality to because she dated men in the PAST ?? which is soooo invalidating & downright homophobic AND sexist. but anyways before i rant on too much, i just wanna say thank you for writing this. you have literally put my exact thoughts into words. and your writing is so well written and amazing 😊
Thank you Gigi <3
of course :))
‘…but they also cannot stand that something doesn’t exist for them. That a woman doesn’t exist for them.’ The entitlement infuriates me beyond belief.
Women would never ever ever think this way? And it just says a whole lot about how women are constantly objectified. Pretty exhausting really.
It is so infuriating - and this piece was born from my own exhaustion as a woman, frankly. It’s so frustrating, and I hated seeing another woman being attacked.
Totally get it. Great piece 👏🏼 👏🏼 thank you for writing & sharing.
Thank you so much for reading!
I loved this so much Sumeyya!
Thank you for reading, Rosa :) <333
Pink Pony Club til I die!! 🌸🏴☠️
Amazing piece. I feel like I have no one to talk to about this. Or actually ,about the other side of this story. Women artists are 95% half naked on stage! I was the first one to defend them against those who were shaming them, because I thought they were expressing themselves. But when you see ALL OF THEM wearing almost to nothing, being sexual, raising the bar of nakedness, you begin to wonder: is this self expression or are we again doing what is expected of us? Who are we catering to? Are we naked on stage because there is a certain privilege and opportunities coming from that? And who is benefitting? I think it’s MEN AGAIN. They convinced us we wanted to be naked, when in truth they want us to get easy access to us being naked. If this wasn’t an imposition then we would see the whole realm of expression: from being all covered, to being extra, to being half naked, whatever. But successful singers are always expected to be naked! (Only few exceptions like Adele, Celine Dion.. not many more)
I think in the case of Chappell it’s definitely self expression and a reclamation of “hyper femininity” (shes said as much in interviews) influenced by drag culture and disrupting the male gaze with her drag makeup and white-face. Men seem to think she’s ugly AF even though she isn’t wearing much at all. She’s just not dressing for them and the drag elements of her stage costumes make that pretty clear.
As for who’s benefitting? A lot of us queer women who previously avoided femme-presenting clothing so as not to draw attention from men. She’s proving to a lot of us that avoiding “feminine” sexy outfits is just another form of submission to their patriarchal control over the culture of female sexuality rather than what we (as women/non-men) personally deem feminine and sexy. So I started wearing more make up and crop tops and I feel more sexy than I ever did dressing as a masc. Chappell is leading by example that just because you’re showing off your body doesn’t mean it’s for the enjoyment of men. It can be enjoyment and celebration of yourself (and the enjoyment of other women) ☺️
this might have changed my life, so beautifully written.
She does revolve around men though? She basically defines lesbianism in reference to being better than country boys and kissing a hundred boys in bars. I mean actual lesbian art exists and it is a niche (and chappell is not a niche) Oh and I would never believe that a woman dressing up feminine is somehow strange or revolutionary. Maybe it seems revolutionary for modern online people who wear only sweatpants, but there is truly nothing strange in a woman wearing heels and makeup. She is just a regular pop star, a commercial product, some producer experimenting with “is queer bating profitable”
Okay Igor - go read your Substacks with AI generated “art” then. With all due respect, I do not take the opinion of a man on a woman’s issue, second from someone who has evidently not understood her lyrics, or her project, and the entirety of this Substack piece, and third, the opinion of a person who has no issue with AI invading the world of art. Thank you for reading however!
I only took the courage to reply because my demographics of 'men who do not like Chappell Roan' were mentioned in the article, so maybe I can contribute by speaking directly from the source? And my understanding of Chappell Roan's lyrics is that I feel targeted, and when I feel targeted - I do not feel decentered. I do feel completely decentered and alienated when I listen to 'Mary Lambert - Christmas Cookies' though.
You feeling targeted is something you should reflect on - the shoe fits, why? Address your own misogyny.
I think I mentioned 'why' in the original comment. She defines lesbianism in reference to being better than country boys and her version of lesbianism involves kissing a hundred boys in bars. Men are definitely not absent from her lyrics, they are not there just for jabs, they are the reference for everything else to be defined as 'not men', 'better than men', etc etc. Compared to Mary Lambert whose lyrics truly has men absent - stark difference.
Again - you have misunderstood the meaning of the lyrics, and are basing your argument on incorrect interpretation. It’s okay, some things aren’t there for cis-hetero men to understand, and you can leave it at that, because you’re struggling!
Look, Apple music pushed 'The Giver' on me, and yes, I everyone sees lyrics from their POV, however, listening to this song made me question - can she love a woman without thinking about country boys? Of course she thinks of them in 'i don't like them - i am better than them' ways, but this is not decentering, this is targeting. That's my only point, really. There is a big difference between targeting and real decentering.
I thought this was so interesting and to me shows how different online discourse is to real life. Most men around my age seem to love chappell roan, my partner plays ice hockey which some people would assume is incredibly masculine and not the target chappell roan audience, but him and his teammates love listening to her and singing along to her songs in bars. I think there are a lot of men who enjoy her because she is just having fun and also just makes great pop music. I introduced my partner to her when we started dating the middle of last year and she ended up in his top 5 Spotify artists. I think a lot of these men complaining about her online are just annoyed that not everything caters to them. Maybe if they were more secure in their masculinity they'd also be singing along to pink pony club in bars with their friends.